1. Cite some variations in the Loathly Lady fabula across
the three tales in your Reader. Focus on the conditions by which the lady is
either beautiful or ugly, and the actions of the knight/king/"hero"...
2. The Wife of Bath's Tale is considered by some critics to indicate that Chaucer may have been a feminist. Why might they believe this? Do you agree? Remember to cite evidence from the text or some other source.
3.Hahn's essay (see critical reader)on The Wedding of Sir Gawain and Dame Ragnelleidentifies the motif of the loathly lady, but arguesit has a different purpose than asserting the feminine. What does he think the function of the story is?
4. In the context of Elizabethan and Jacobean sonnets, how can we define "conceits"?
5. Discuss what you think is the most striking or outrageous example.
6. What does Revard (1997) suggest about the relationship between language, sex, power and transgression in the English Renaissance?
2. The Wife of Bath's Tale is considered by some critics to indicate that Chaucer may have been a feminist. Why might they believe this? Do you agree? Remember to cite evidence from the text or some other source.
3.Hahn's essay (see critical reader)on The Wedding of Sir Gawain and Dame Ragnelleidentifies the motif of the loathly lady, but arguesit has a different purpose than asserting the feminine. What does he think the function of the story is?
4. In the context of Elizabethan and Jacobean sonnets, how can we define "conceits"?
5. Discuss what you think is the most striking or outrageous example.
6. What does Revard (1997) suggest about the relationship between language, sex, power and transgression in the English Renaissance?
3. As The Wedding of Sir Gawain and Dame Ragnelle is a romance story, it has some specific features that makes it so. In his essay, Hahn (1995) identifies within the story the motif of the loathly lady and argues that this motif has a different purpose other than asserting feminism. So, what other purpose did the motif of the loathly lady serve?
ReplyDeleteOne point that Hahn makes is that a lot of the actions that Dame Ragnelle plays out are for the eventual happiness of all of the main characters that are involved in the plot, as this is a feature of romance. Hahn explains how Ragnelle as a mysterious character, ensures that everything eventually falls into place, as it should be.
Hahn explains that in romance, there should be a link between fantasy and necessity, and he believes that this is evident in the text how there is, "Meetings in the woods, monstrous apparitions, sudden transformations".
To understand the genre of 'Romance', (Anonymous, n.d., 'Cliff Notes') points out that romance is not what we today would consider a romance text. (Anonymous, n.d., 'Cliff Notes') claims that in medieval times, romance did not necessarily mean a love story. In fact, it was more of a fantasy adventure involving knights. The reason why it was called romance was because romance referred to various European languages e.g. French and Latin. Elements of fantasy are always present, some form of magic or transformation, all of which is present in The Wedding of Sir Gawain and Dame Ragnelle. Another element of romance that (Anonymous, n.d., 'Cliff Notes') explains is that romance texts in medieval times most often were used as "a vehicle for serious moral messages", which is also evident in the text in question.
Another purpose of the loathly lady motif that Hahn mentions in his essay is that she literally holds the text together and is the primary link between all of the main characters. Hahn explains how Ragnelle undoes the threat that is imposed by her brother, she she knows the answer to Arthur's problem and eventually saves his life, and she presents the opportunity for Gawain to prove himself as a good man, by proving his loyalty to the king, and his respect towards women. Hahn explains that through all of her ties and connections with the main male characters, she literally becomes the 'nexus' that brings them all together and "makes possible the fraternal and hierarchic bonds of chivalric solidarity."
References:
Hahn, T. (Ed.). (1995). The Wedding of Sir Gawain and Dame Ragnelle.In Sir Gawain: Eleven Romances and Tales. Kalamazoo, Michigan: Medieval Institute Publications
Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. (n.d.). Cliff notes. Retrieved 25 March, 2014 from:
http://www.cliffsnotes.com/literature/s/sir-gawain-and-the-green-knight/about-sir-gawain-and-the-green-knight
2. To understand the question fully we must agree that the definition of feminism is the belief that men and women should have equal rights and respect in society. It is defined by the Oxford dictionary as “The advocacy of women’s rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.”
ReplyDeleteOne could argue either side; Chaucer’s Wife of Bath’s Tale is multi-faceted and both feminist and anti-feminist.
One feminist character found within the text is the inclusion of strong female characters; such as the queen, the wife of bath, and the ‘loathly lady’. They obtain power and authority, an uncommon notion in many texts of the time. “The head to this feminine body politic is the queen, “hirself sittynge as a justice. When Arthur relinquishes the matter to his queen, his surrender is complete, and she is authorized to take over the king’s power as ultimate judge” (Carter 2003). However, the very fact that she is given power, rather than simply taking it, implies that power belongs to man and the sharing of it is his prerogative.
Another instance which indicates a feminist leaning is his treatment of rape. The subject of rape is approached within the first few paragraphs, although not in such harsh terms. “By utter force, he took away her maidenhead; For which wrong was such clamor And such demand for justice unto king Arthur, That this knight was condemned to be dead,” (The Wife of Bath’s Tale 888-892)
The moral stand that is taken against this action is severe and swift. The victim is in no way dehumanized or blamed, and the perpetrator is given some form of justice. It could be argued that this response was even more advanced than our modern times, in which ‘victim-blaming’ and ‘slut-shaming’ have become prevalent (the argument that a victim’s sexual-history or actions affect her responsibility).
Ultimately, however, after paying his penance, the rapist is rewarded with a beautiful and faithful wife. The very fact that he is forgiven and rewarded with a woman (i.e woman as prize) is an anti-feminist notion.
Carter, S. (2003). Coupling The Beastly Bride And The Hunter Hunted: What Lies Behind in Chaucer’s Wife Of Bath’s Tale. In The Chaucer Review, Vol. 37, No. 4, 2003.
Thoughtful comment Abigail, and well backed up with reading. I tend to agree. After all, it is a male, Chaucer himself, pulling strings here, the narrative strings.
DeleteYour point about how the Queen had to be given power by the king as opposed to taking it is something that I had not considered. Good point.
DeleteOver the course of these last three weeks I have come to learn a lot about Geoffrey Chaucer. I discovered that in his lifetime he was, in fact, charged with rape. "Around the year 1380, Geoffrey Chaucer was charged with rape by a woman named Cecily Chaumpaigne (Williams 28)." This was before he wrote The Wife of Bath's Tale, and some believe the text was written to appease his guilty conscience.
DeleteIf, in fact, the protagonist is modeled on himself we can hardly say that this is a feminist piece of literature. This is not the story of the 'raped maiden'- she is a mere note in the story, and her character is developed no further after the incident. It is not the story of the Queen, nor even really the story of the Loathly Lady. It is the story of the rapist, and his ultimate victory, and reward, is decidedly anti-feminist.
I have also been thinking about what Mike said in the studio, about the use of the word 'sovereignty' as opposed to 'equality'. I feel as though the power struggles in the 14th Century would have been so pronounced, that the idea of 'equality' would have seemed a strange and foreign concept. Considering that what we call the 'Feminist Movement' didn't start until the 1970s, the idea of female equality would have been a strange notion.
So therefore, I believe that these female characters only wanted what men had; power. The female characters themselves do, I believe, express a primitive form of feminist ideals. I don't believe, however, that Chaucer himself held these same beliefs.
References
http://www.novelguide.com/reportessay/literature/novels/geoffrey-chaucer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wife_of_Bath's_Tale#Antifeminism
1. The Wife of Bath’s was written by Geoffrey Chaucer was called the father of English poetry. This tale was written in the 14th century (Geoffrey Chaucer, 1390.). It was derived from the story of King Arthur, which originated from the Europe. In the tale the loathly lady existed also in the last story of King Henry. Both of the stories have similarities as they had an old ugly lady that helped a man, and in return the old women wanted marriage. However, the men wanted a beautiful woman.
ReplyDeleteIn the Wife of Bath’s Tale, the knight saw the ugliest lady, worse than a creature for the first time. After the man’s life was spared the ugly woman asked him to marry her, the knight said “alas and woe is me! I know right well that such was my promise, for god’s love, choose a new request! Take all my goods and let my body go (l. 1058-1061).” We see here that he wanted to give up all of his property instead of marrying an ugly old lady. At the end of the tale he had no other option but to wed this old ugly woman that had helped him and as the knight gave the right to his wife, the loathly lady became a beautiful young girl. “The Knight was very pleased to saw this scene and hugged his wife; at the moment he felt he was surrounded by happiness” (l. 1250-1256).
In my opinion, this tales emphasized on the sovereignty of woman. Women have power and control. The knight only cared for the appearance of his future wife. We read that he would have rather gave up on all his property than marry such a creature. I think if they gave him another option he would have chosen it instead of marry the old women.
Reference:
Geoffrey, Chaucer. (c.1390). The Wife of Bath.
Also following on I think the reason for this tale is woman who lived in last middle age had not many right than a man, Therefore, women desire to have sovereignty.
DeleteCertainly Chaucer was aware of the desire of women for 'sovereignty' but that does not mean he approved of it. The woman's power in the story is ultimately derived from the King. A man.
Delete4.According to Abrams (1993), conceits are intricately woven into the verse and “express satire, puns or deeper meanings within the poem, and to display the poet’s own cunning with the words.”(p.113). The context of Elizabethan and Jacobean sonnets, research shows that a sonnet is a poem of fourteen lines, using formal rhyme schemes. However to describe ‘conceits’ in the sonnets it is like a play on words, a comparison of opposite thing, like a metaphor. This style of writing was introduced in England in the middle of 1500s.
ReplyDeleteReference:
Abrams, M.H. (1993). The Norton anthology of English literature, 6th ed. New York: W.W. Norton and company, Inc., p.1081.
Asarnow, D. (n.d.). The Elizabethan (&jacobean) Sonnet. Retrieved May 30,2012, from http://faculty.up.edu/asarnow/324/Sonnets03.htm
I agree with your explanation of Conceit. I found and another good literature by John Donne titled “The Flea” from our class that could help with understanding conceit and it’s the most conceit poem for me. This poem is about a man trying convincing a woman to sleep with him and how the act is innocent. The woman kills the flee without any thought and the man tell the woman that killing that flea without any thought is like sleeping with him and how the result can be innocent, “Thought use make you apt to… just so much honor, when thou yeeld’st to mee” (Lines 16~26). The out of the ordinary concept in this poem is that the blood that has been sucked by the flea refers to the sexual relationship between the man and the woman and how this cannot be a sin, be shameful, or loss of virginity, “It suck’d me first, and now sucks thee, And in this flea, our two bloods mingled bee; thought know’st that this cannot be said a sinne, nor shame, nor losse of maidenhead” (Lines 3~6). Referring the flea that drank the blood as themselves and their marriage and their sexual relationship, “This flea is you and I, and this our marriage bed, and marriage temple is” (Lines 12 and 13) is also creative. Having two unlikely things, ‘The flea and Love’ linked in most unlikely way is the hidden conceit in the literature.
DeleteReference:
John, Donne. (1633). The Flea.
Hi all, I agree with your definitions here of ‘conceits’. As Abrams (1993) defines it, they are “metaphors that are intricately woven into the verse, often used to express satire, puns, or deeper meanings within the poem, and to display the poet's own cunning with words.” –As you have already said Christine.
DeleteAnother way that Paul Mountfort put it was that they are the ‘key’ to unlocking the sonnet (sonnet being defined as a poem, properly expressive of a single, complete thought, idea, or sentiment of 14 lines). Once one has ‘unlocked’ the conceit (or figured out the metaphor), one can make sense of the sonnet.
And I certainly agree that the most ‘striking or outrageous’ example, as question 5 puts it, is The Flea by John Donne. In the sonnet, the flea begins as something small but takes on huge meaning- as the narrator attempts to convince a woman to sleep with him. He expresses that losing one’s virginity/innocence is not such a big deal; their blood is already mixed inside this lowly flea- a normal event that caused neither of them to lose their honour.
The flea takes over the whole sonnet, to the point where his original cause no longer matters.
His conceit is strange however, comparing sex, marriage and even pregnancy, as the swelling of the insect implies, to being bitten by a flea. When the woman squashes the flea she takes ultimate control. “By killing the flea whom the poet has given such strange attributes, the woman squashes the symbolic world the man has constructed and brought them both back to reality.” Abrams (1993) With this move she has ‘sovereignty’ over the poet, which could relate back to earlier discussions as to whether these texts are feminist.
References
Abrams, M.H. (1993). The Norton Anthology of English Literature, 6th ed. New York:W.W. Norton and Company, Inc., p.1081.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sonnet
Interesting debate coming along here. Where is the humour of the story directed?
ReplyDelete2. 'The Wife of Bath's Tale' could certainly be seen as a text that resembles feminist views. 'Feminism' is defined by dictionary.com as,
ReplyDelete"The doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men." (dictionary.com).
From the beginning of this story, the female characters seem to have the upper hand. At the beginning of the text, Arthur gives his wife the opportunity to make a decision whether or not to spare Bath's wife.
"So long prayed the king for grace Until he granted him his life right there, To choose whether she would him save or put to death." (Chaucer, pp. 65).
The way the king gives his wife the opportunity to make a decision such as whether or not to save a man's life, shows the respect he had for her and for women. The Queen then offers the man his life if he is able to tell her what it is women desire most, which is another direct link to feminism and women showing some supremacy over men.
When Bath returns to the Queen with his answer to what it is women desire most, he presents to her an answer that was given to him by a women in exchange for a favour that he must grant her in return. By this stage of the text, it is evident that there is a lot of dominance over men happening. Bath is searching for an answer about what women want, so that he can save himself from being killed by a woman, so he ends up seeing the help from a woman, in return for a favour.
Even the answer that the loathly lady gives Bath about what it is that women most desire, is a very feminist answer.
"My liege lady, without exception," he said, “Women desire to have sovereignty As well over her husband as her love, And to be in mastery above him. This is your greatest desire, though you kill me." (Chaucer, pp. 68).
This answer that Bath is given by the loathly lady, is an answer that indicates that women desire to have more control and more equality with men. More control and equality with men is what feminism is all about which is why I do agree that Chaucer could very much have been a feminist.
In an essay by PlainJane (2005), she points out that women in medieval times had very distinct roles in society which consisted mostly of cooking, cleaning, sewing, and so on. This is why Chaucer's use of female characters who over step the boundaries and take some control in their roles in society make interesting characters who are in some ways very admirable.
References:
Chaucer, G. (n.d.). The wife of Bath's tale.
Feminism. (n.d.). Dictionary.com. Retrieved April 1, 2014, from:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/feminism
PlainJane. (2005). The wife of bath: feminism in Chaucer. Study mode. Retrieved April 1, 2014, from:
http://www.studymode.com/essays/The-Wife-Of-Bath-Feminism-In-55018.html
Excellent answer, Zane. But I'm not sure that Chaucer is pushing any kind of 'doctrine' in the modern sense. He is certainly aware of women's aspirations, but how do we know he approves of them. What a character says does not necessarily mean the writer thinks the same way.
Delete*Spelling mistake
ReplyDeletein Paragraph 3, meant to say Bath's 'life', not bath's 'wife'.
I agree with you Zane, The Wife of Baths Tale does relate to feminism. you make a good point.
DeleteThe wife of bath’s Tale is considered by some critics to indicate that Chaucer may have been a feminist. Why might they believe this? Do you agree? Remember to cite evidence from the text or some other sources.
ReplyDeleteTo give the answer I believe it is important to explain about the Gender Roles of men and women in The Middle Ages. In The Middle Ages it was total male dominance, women were physically, mentally and morally inferior to men. For these reasons women were totally excluded from any political power and legal privileges.
In The wife of Bath’s Tale, Chaucer brings topics like marriage, sex and romance in to the literature which was a difficult topic to deal with at the time. He uses revolution of gender and marriage to portray women’s equality to men by using the topics above. These are examples of how he portrays his idea.
“My liege and lady, in general, said he, ‘A woman wants the self-same sovereignty over her husband as over her lover, and master him; he must not be above her. That is your greatest wish, whether you kill or spare me; please yourself, I wait your will.” (72P.)
Through answering to the question ‘What thing is that women most desire’ (66P.) he portrays women and men’s equality.
"Women desire to have sovereignty. As well over her husband as her love, And to be in mastery above him. This is your greatest desire, though you kill me. Do as you please; I am here subject to your will." (68p.)
In this quote the knight’s life hangs in the hands of Queen. The cause of this was because the knight took the free will of another person. It shows that by taking someone else’s own free will, it will cause their own free will to taken away from them in return, retribution. Through the knights actions Chaucer indicates the limitations and unreasonableness of taking the will of another person through force and the true relationship between women and men is not about having control over one another, it is accepting the other’s individuality.
I believe due to these examples some critics may have believed Chaucer to be a feminist. I also have come to the conclusion that Chaucer may have been a feminist because in most of Chaucer’s work, he also objects about The Middle Ages ideas for women having to obey to men at all times. In the book he focuses on/shows listening to women’s voice and how women have to be identified as separate identity to men. Chaucer repeatedly debates about men and women’s struggle to get the upper hand in marriage and strongly states if one side takes the upper hand it results in failure. This can also relate to the fact Chaucer is a feminist because his work is based on feminism.
Reference:
Chaucer, G. (n.d.). The wife of Bath's tale.
Great comment thread here. Sadam, it is true that the 'knight’s life hangs in the hands of Queen' but it is the king who has conferred this power to the Queen
ReplyDeleteYes, the power of queen was from the king but in the full texts Chaucer described the power of the king as a little importance. Chaucer dealt with mainly the force of woman in his writing as you can see in the title. It is still important that the authority was from the king. In my opinion, however, Chaucer tried to let the readers realise that woman’s rights should be increased by representing the woman characters generally in his work.
Delete6. What does Revard (1997) suggest about the relationship between language, sex, power and transgression in the English Renaissance?
ReplyDeleteThe English Renaissance was a time of literary boom. As well as the progression of visual art productions (plays), Poetry began to take a foothold as a literary device of the time. It is during this period that poetry was produced by both men and women, and because poetry was written by both of the sex’s, it was inevitable that comparisons of work between men and women would take place, and it is this comparison which was subject to sexism towards women by men.
Revard, S.P. (1997), suggests that there is a definitive gap between male and female poets and their work of this era.
‘’It is not astonishing that a gentleman poet of this era should argue against female rights, but it is rather astonishing that he should carry his argument even to the point of denying a specific verse form to females’’ Revard, S.P. (1997). pp.19
The subjection that women poets faced was predominantly towards their gender first, and their literary works second. Analysing the writer based on their gender over that of their work contributed to women being actively placed below their male counterparts in their field of writing.
Revard states that ‘’All these complimentary poems to men are extravagant; but all look at the artist, the writer, the scientist first, then at the man. But in his odes to
Katherine Philips, he never lets us forget that we are looking at best at a most curious phenomenon--a woman who writes’’ Revard, S.P. (1997) pp 21
It is these subjective views of female poets during the English Renaissance by their male counterparts that establishes a relationship between the sex’s of a struggle for power and dominance. Men struggled to get over the notion that a woman poet was infact just that, a woman, and that by seeing her gender as less equal to that of a male, female poets during this time were always below men and their works of poetry held in a light of lesser quality.
References:
Revard, S.P. (1997)"Katherine Philips, Aphra Behn, and the Female Pindaric in Representing Women in Renaissance England, edited by Claude J. Summers and Ted-Larry Pebworth. Columbia: University of Missouri Press
Wikipedia, English Renaissance. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_renaissance
Retrieved April 2014.
2.
ReplyDeleteIn Chaucer’s 'The Wife of Bath's Tale', we immediately see possible evidence that he held feministic views in his writing.
‘’ In every bush or under every tree there is no other evil spirit but he, and he will not do them any harm except dishonor.’’ (Chaucer, G.)
Chaucer’s reference to the friar that he will dishonour women, immediately establishes that men in this story are evil, and will take advantage of women.
As mentioned by Abigail, there is also further evidence to suggest that women’s power in the Wife of Bath’s Tale is given to them by men, and not taken forcefully by themselves.
‘’ Choose yourself which may be most pleasure And most honor to you and me also. I do not care which of the two, For as it pleases you, is enough for me." "Then have I gotten mastery of you," she said, "Since I may choose and govern as I please?" (Chaucer, G.)
Here the knight is giving the woman the power to choose, and to take ‘’mastery’’ over the knight. This is perhaps another example that Chaucer had feministic and also anti – feministic views which were represented in his works.
References:
Chaucer, G. The wife of Bath's tale.
I like your use of the quote "In every bush or under every tree there is no other evil spirit but he, and he will not do them any harm except dishonor.’’ (Chaucer, G.). This quote does in my opinion very much reflect feminism in the text. It is a very narcissistic comment which assumes that all males are the same; uncaring and evil.
Delete1. Some variations in the Loathly Lady fabula across the three corresponding texts include the depiction of the loathly lady and the reaction and actions of the hero or knight in the tale.
ReplyDeleteThe Wife of Bath’s Tale tells us the story of a knight who is sent out into the world to correct his wrongdoings by discovering what it is that woman really desire (Chaucer, 1405). After searching for a year to have no answer the knight comes across a “hag”, a general identifier that this will be the loathly lady in this tale. The hag agrees to give the knight the answer to his question as long as he agrees to anything she desires. Once given the answer and the knight is freed of all his charges the hag then states that he is to wed her. He reluctantly agrees but is repulsed by her nonetheless. On their wedding knight he does not want to bed the woman and she asks him whether he would prefer a beautiful woman who is unfaithful, or an ugly woman who is faithful. He answer that the choice is hers to make and she then gives him beauty and faithfulness (Chaucer, 1405). This is a typical example of the loathly lady fabula. The role of the knight in this tale is an important one also as he shows that faithfulness is more important than beauty and when one gives in to potential love they will be greeted with beauty beyond their desires.
In the text from our Critical Reader, “King Arthur meets a really ugly woman: Modern English version” we see a variation of the tale where the loathly lady is indeed ugly, the author writes “she was the ugliest creature that a man ever saw” (Hahn, 1995). The use of the loathly lady in the finest form is used. She is shown to be a strong woman who demands what she wants from the hero in the tale. The hero is this tale is identified as Sir Gawain. In the take Dame Ragnelle demands from King Arthur that Sir Gawain weds her and that if he does not King Arthur will surely meet his death. Sir Gawain quickly accepts in order to honor his king and friend and keep him alive. The actions of the hero in this case are very noble (Hahn, 1995). Although in the extract we do not learn whether the woman ever transforms into a beauty we cannot say whether this is truly a loathly lady rendition.
The song from the 1972 band Steeleye Span titled “King Henry” tells the tale of King Henry and his men as they are under attack from a beast. She asks him to feed her, to give her drinks and to bed her. She then asks for him to marry her and although he is hesitant he does as she pleases. When the morning comes she has become “fairest lady that ever was seen” (Steeleye Span, 1972). This is another interpretation of the loathly lady fabula. The beast talked about in the text is the lady, or that is what she becomes and it is done because of the kind doings of the hero in the tale.
A reoccurring theme in the loathly lady fabula is the sacrifice of the hero or knight in the tale that leads them to discover the beauty that is under the surface of these described monsters. Another is the lady transforming herself after the initial sacrifice of the hero in the said text. Although a still very often used style even in modern society it is a vain theme and one that again gives in to the male ideal. It gives in to the instance that woman should have to be beautiful in a certain way to be loved by men, and although these text existed a many few years ago it is such a sexist concept. It is considered that just because a man is a knight or a king then he is that much more loveable and wanted by woman but if a woman is a hag then she must be ugly and unwanted. This is again a common reoccurrence in these tales.
Chaucer, G. (1405). The Canterbury Tales: The Wife of Bath’s Tale.
Hahn, T. (Ed.). (1995). The Wedding of Sir Gawain and Dame Ragnelle.In Sir Gawain: Eleven Romances and Tales. Kalamazoo, Michigan: Medieval Institute Publications
Steeleye Span. (1972). King Henry.